photo by jgestar Very early Fenwick FF84 |
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fingernail |
A&F Banty |
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What would be worth these days? Who made the rod?
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reelill |
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Fingernail,
The one I have seen was a phillipson. Do you have a photo? Richard |
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salmonid |
A&F Banty | ||
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I own several glass and have handled any number of them. All were Phillipson built. There were three (3) "Banty" bamboo rods also which A&F
marketed; all 4'-4" which is what the name "Banty" correctly means. Hardy, Orvis and Payne all sold their version through A&F along with
the Phillipson glass model.
A glass Phillipson Banty went up on eBay today, the 30th of May, 2009. It's listed as 4.5'. In actuality it should measure 4'-4" as are all the Banty labeled series of rods from the early 60's. Banty was the name for specific rods which measured 4'-4", no matter which of the makers built their version. The term "Banty" has become bastardized and is mis-used today often referring to almost any short rod. These are serious, tight-venue rods which punch a 4 or 5 wt. with amazing accuracy and many folks would get much enjoyment from them after getting familiar with the casting stroke needed to make these little rods work. Good luck on the eBay rod. Oh, you know there was a specific "Banty" line made just for these rods, too, don't you? AND, A&F made a little travel kit containing the reel, a Hardy Flyweight, usually a silent check version, a fly box, line and hinges which were modified loops through which the green plastic Banty rod tube was carried. Neat little set up. |
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jgestar |
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There is also a
complete kit sitting on eBay waiting for a bid at $299. This one has aluminum Sizematic ferrules. While I suppose it is a possibility Phillipson made the
rod, I've never seen a Phillipson labeled rod with anything other than their drawn nickel silver ferrules. The reelseat fittings don't look like
standard Phillipson fare either. The reel with the kit is the Hardy Flyweight with the silent check. The line looks like one of the vinyl coated Cortland
333s from the early 50s, but it is not labeled in any way.
Watch the two auctions and you should get an idea of the value. The complete kit is a collector piece, while the recent rod is a standalone auction. The later rod looks to have a Phillipson ferrule and reelseat fittings. I have a knock off of the A&F Banty, the Fly Atom. It's cute, but doesn't have any of the performance that salmonid mentions. It goes to show there is more to making a rod than the looks. Tom |
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flyfishing4goldentrout |
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Interesting, I to am watching this auction, its a model I have not yet aquired, and was wondering about its actual abilities.
I have a really nice Phillipson two piece 6ft 5wt miti light, its a real fun rod, very light weight and also takes a light reel, been fishing it here with a DT4S and some size 12-16 nymphs, beadhead bugger streamers and a few Letort Crickets in size 12 that appear drowned with the sinking setup. However I was really wondering what the Banty was like to fish, anybody done any casting with one, i.e, how far with ease? My miti light will strip the DT4S with a double haul and cast. Oh mine has the almost always present NS Phillipson ferrules and no rock reel seat. Richard |
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salmonid |
Banty rod performance | ||
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I own and USE almost all of the Banty rods which were generally available; Orvis, A&F-marked Orvis, (including Arnold Gingrich's personal Banty),
Hardy, A&F-marked Hardy, the Payne (reproduction), A.J. Thramer's 444, and one of only two T&T's made, the above all in bamboo AND a number of
the Phillipson-made A&F-marked glass Banty.
There are a couple of point's to be aware of if you're interested in trying one of these little rods to fish with any comfort and success. First of all, these are NOT light-line, 2 or 3 wt. rods as one might expect from a 4'-4" rod, which is what the "Banty" rod name originally meant. These rods were designed to perform at their peak with a 4 or a 5wt. line. Next, A&F marketed a specially-designed "torpedo" taper line to bring out the maximum performance of these short rods. The use of this line is KEY to obtaining the correct, maximum performance these little rods are capable of producing. This line taper can be thought of as a heavy front, weight-forward, short, bass taper. While these original A&F Banty lines are occasionally available on eBay, Teeny marketed (maybe still is in his list of lines) a close approximation to the original A&F taper (which was labeled "Monogram" and was made by Gladding, I believe) in one of his lines, named "Firstcast" (thanks, Fingernail). Anyway, utilizing one of these specially designed lines with a Banty rod creates a whole new experience for the Banty rod caster. Properly lined, these rods are extremely accurate at close to medium range distances (out to 40 or 50 feet) and I have seen entire lines cast with these little rods by competent casters. The last point to keep in mind is that the shortness of these rods, 4'-4" which is what DEFINES the Banty rod creates the need for a much different casting stroke. To get an idea of the casting stroke needed, take your standard 9' two piece, 5wt. rod apart, run a line through the tip section and pull off some extra line from your reel to work with. Put the reel in your hip or jacket pocket, and now work the line you have using only the tip section of your rod. The caster will obviously need to put in some practice to develop the stroke needed to get maximum performance from this short rod. If you routinely fish a "normal" length fly rod and pick up a Banty for a short time the difference in casting properties is SO dramatic that most folks put the Banty down as a useless "toy". However, leave the longer rod behind and put in the needed hours to become proficient with this short rod and you will be amazed at the capabilities of not only it's accuracy but the distance which you will quickly be able to cast. What are the benefits to such a short rod? Ease of handling on small streams where tight, brushy conditions exist and one is forever banging into obstacles with even a short 6-1/2' rod. AND, perhaps even more important, is the ACCURACY with which these rods can cast. If you're fishing small streams, where you have a lot of overhead brush, branches and/or sweepers in the water, little shore-line pockets and over-hangs and those types of close-quarter conditions, these little rods are just the ticket to present flies to saucer-sized targets of open water pocketed in obstacle-course stream conditions. These are NOT the rods of choice for open-water lake casting or large western rivers or float tube fishing. Although once you've become proficient with one of these and are using the correct line, you may be surprised at how often you are picking up the Banty as your "go to" rod when heading out to the stream. This genre` of 4'4" Banty rods from the early 60's was spearheaded by the prominent Sporting Goods houses of the day, A&F and Orvis. Both firms were noted small-rod proponents and marketed and made, respectively, this line of rods which were enjoyed by a generation of fly fishers before these little rods faded into the shadows of history. Arnold Gingrich, founder of ESQUIRE men's magazine was perhaps the Banty rod's most vocal and prominent enthusiast but gentlemen fly fishers of that era considered any fly rod arsenal incomplete without at least one example of the Banty in their rod arsenal along with the larger "midge" rods of 6' to 6'6" which the noted Lee Wulff used so successfully. Today people use the term "banty" to refer to almost any rod in lengths of something under seven feet, no matter the line weight. Contemporary fly fishers are both confused and unaware of this little rod's true origins and actual applications and capabilities in today's world of fly fishing. Go find yourself a true Banty rod, get the correct line, practice and experience for yourself the kind of fun your grandfather or father enjoyed 50 years ago.
Last Edited By: salmonid
06/02/09 11:56:51.
Edited 2 times.
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delkins.marblemental |
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Great thread. Boy, I'd love to see a photo of Arnold Gingrich's personal Banty...hint hint...
-Dave |
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Kenov |
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Ditto. I'd also love to see a pic' of the Gingrich rod. Heck, I'd like to see the whole collection. I'm savlivating just imagining it.
Personally, I enjoy my A and F Banty, and other short rods too. |
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fingernail |
re | ||
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I do have the line, it's stout and short tapered, I believe Teeny's "first cast" line was basically the same taper. I live in Downeast Maine
a 7ftr is equivelent to a 9ftr up here. I use to own a fly atom, great little rod for what I needed it for. I was thinking of up grading. The fly atom was
4'6" ? wasn't it? Banty's are pretty cool and have held a special place for me, like salmonid said they are specialty rods for specific jobs.
Looks lie there is alot of interest on the bay, but I was looking for market value.
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salmonid |
Banty line | ||
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Fingernail, thanks, that's the name of the line I was thinking of, Teeny's "Firstcast". I'll try to edit my post to avoid a flood of
email inquiries. Thank you.
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fingernail |
re | ||
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No prob, I love that little T&T, Marty Desapio sent me the taper and a few pics. How do you like it. I haven't had it made but was thinking one of
these days. That Teeny line is hard to find, not sure if they still make it. It was cheap, loads just about anything. Orvis had a green mountain line they sold
at walmart it was also great, can't seem to find that one either.
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keebranch |
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Great points on the Banty. Last summer Ron (Bulldog) was kind enough to allow me to fish his 6 foot Phillipson with Teeny 130 line. The rod is rated 6wt and I
doubt it would have liked 3 or 4 wt line unless it has 45 feet of line aerialized.
les |
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flyfishing4goldentrout |
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I suspect your correct on your line assignments, I have a Phillipson Miti Light #62 at 6ft and Im sure the basis for this series, it loves DT5S fun to cast, so
if the shorter rods are true to form they are not light lines by todays standards, however they are a ball with modern lines of the slightly heavier weights.
Richard |
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