Does a blade of [bamboo] grass cost that much more than an ounce of graphite or three ounces of fiberglass? The same question can be said about bamboo
rods...how can some reputable builders make rods for under $1000 and others can charge >$2500. When you carefully inspect them they really are no different,
not $1000 different. But, people are willing to pay those prices and wait years to get their rod made.
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Hardy introducing glass fly rods
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 Boo |
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Master Guide
Posts: 460 (09/12/08 08:29:15) |
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Kenov |
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Guide
Posts: 32 (09/12/08 08:44:04) |
I guess I feel much like Bamboozle123 does. I want to know my rod or reel was made, preferably, by people who fish or, at the very least, in a place where
there is a well-known culture of fishing. This is especially so, when I'm paying premium prices. The few people who still work on the Hardy production
floor in Alnwick are, by and large, fishers. The live nearby the River Aln and other great streams, in an area where there is a long history of flyfishing and
tackle production (other tackle companies were based in Alnwick too). I'm pretty confident this isn't the case in Korea. Nothing against the Korean
makers, but, to me, this means the rods or reels will be missing a little "something." Call me a goofy romantic, but that's they way I am.
Also, Lugan, some classic reels are made in Korea (some are also made in Alnwick). I saw and discussed these reels (they were lightweight "seconds"
from Korea) with people at the Hardy headquarters in Alnwick.
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wacokid54 |
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Master Guide
Posts: 267 (09/12/08 09:52:41) |
It always drives me nuts that the Retailer tackle show is here in Denver, and I don't get to see it! Have any of you ever been to this show? Anybody
going this event this year? I would love to be a fly on the wall in there.
As for the relative merits of this or that new glass rod, custom or mass produced, I and my bank account are glad that I enjoy the nostalgia of fishing old rods made in the 60s and 70s by Fenwick, Garcia Conolon, Wright McGill and Cortland. (and Sears, and St. Croix, and Berkley, etc., etc.). Although if I did the math I would probably figure out that I could have bought a really nice modern glass rod or two with that eBay money and shipping charges. But, that is why I like lever action rifles, single action revolvers, and double barrel side by side shotguns, I guess. Nostalgia. I do look forward to hearing about the new Hardy, but doubt if I will ever own one. I do wonder what flyshops here in Colorado will end up with one or more in their rack for sale. That could be an interesting barometer of interest in fiberglass. Fish On!! wacokid54 |
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Bamboozle |
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Guide
Posts: 119 (09/12/08 10:29:27) |
Boo wrote:There are some subtle differences. Bamboo quality varies greatly; not just cosmetically but also in grain, node spacing, density and other factors just like most natural materials. Pre-embargo cane is still coveted by many builders. True masters of the craft reject more culms than they accept. I have a feeling that isn't standard practice across the board; somebody is using those culms the perfectionist rejected. Then you have hand planing versus bevelers, flaming versus non-flamed, blued hardware versus non-blued and a quick dip versus a hand rubbed finish. Also in the old days and even today with some builders; ferrules, reel seats, inserts, winding checks, rod sacks and even tubes along with many other components were hand made by the builder not just purchased from a supplier. While I don't disagree about the huge price differences when all things ARE equal; for me with bamboo it's more about the years of experience of the builder, the building process and the hours spent making the rod rather than just comparing the materials used although quality components do cost more. But hours spent is the biggest factor. A car is a car is a car to some but a Ferrari isn't just a car when you see what goes into making it roar. Some of that comparison is analogous to the fiberglass question I posed although my question was less about high quality glass versus cheap glass, than a question as to why ANY glass is considered inferior in value to graphite regardless of the quality of the non-blank components or the relative performance or lack thereof. I mean; if you told somebody you bought a $2000 bamboo rod they may think you are crazy but they know that bamboo is generally more expensive than graphite because of the time it takes to build one. But when you tell them that you have a $500 fiberglass rod they look at you like you are out of your mind while they fish with a $600 graphite. One or both of us is nuts; I'm just trying to figure out who. 
Kenov: I made mention of the Hardy Classics. From a conversation I had with Hardy a year ago regarding the origin of a new Lightweight Series reel I purchased; I was told they changed the markings on the reel as a throwback to older Hardy reels and also for some continuity with other reels NOT made in the UK. (The newest Lightweights DON'T say "Made in England" on them). They then made SOME prototype product in Korea prior to 2007 before discovering the error of their ways and deciding to keep the Classics made in the UK for the time being. I was told the Lightweight series are machined in Peterlee 50 miles away before being returned to Hardy in Alnwick for finishing and assembly. I was assured MY particular reel was made in England and that for the time being the rest of the series would continue that way. Things may have changed since August 2007 but that was the status of the Lightweights as told to me for what it is/was worth. The exceptional good news is Hardy USA will be opening their new HQ a mere hour + drive from my home so hopefully I will be able to see these rods in person soon! 
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Kenov |
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Guide
Posts: 33 (09/12/08 10:46:28) |
Thanks for the further info. re. the classic reels, Bamboozle. Perhaps the reels I saw were some of a few made in Korea, or perhaps things have changed. For
what it's worth, I did see some Cascapedias, St. George Jr.s, and Perfects on the production floor (in additon to some Angels) in Alnwick.
I'm near Lancaster, too, as well, as much as I complain about recent developments at Hardy, I'll certainly be visiting the new facility too. In Alnwick, the Hardy person I was visiting commented about how passionate people get about Hardy. He was certainly right. As this thread attests, some of the passion is good, some is bad, but it's passion all the same. |
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GRASSNGLASS |
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Guide
Posts: 196 (09/12/08 12:29:55) |
Bamboo Vs. Glass prices.
Might have something to do with the 70 to 100 hrs to build a cane rod compared to wrapping some cloth around a piece of metal, putting little this or that chemical on it and sticking it in an oven. Sounds like making a glass rod is more like baking a cake then making a piece of art out of bamboo. Don't get me wrong, I love to cast good glass and graphite, but this is comparing apples to truffles. Barry |
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 corlay |
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Master Guide
Posts: 217 (09/12/08 12:44:22) |
Bamboozle wrote:both...
"From my observations I think that most of us spend too much time worrying about our tackle and too little time
learning the intimate characteristics of the fish and streams we fish most."
- Ray Bergman
Trout, New York: Knopf 1938 |
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Boo |
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Master Guide
Posts: 461 (09/12/08 12:53:09) |
Ya got me wrong... wasn't comparing grass to glass prices. But, why do people pay so much more for some graphite vs fiberglass is similar as to why do some
people pay so much for one builder's bamboo rod vs another. Yes, there are differences between makers, hobby vs full-time etc, but when it comes to
reputable builders there isn't much difference if any at all and I've seen a lot of cane rods. The difference is that some builders get written about
or mentioned by a famous fisher person or celeb, or are frequently mentioned on particular forums and their name and prices take off because others begin to
believe that particular builder 'must make the best' because so'n'so says so. Or because s'n'so has a 5 year waiting list for a
rod...so he must be the best:>] But, there's no proof just subjective preferences. So, like graphite, which is pushed and advertised to no end in
magazines and on most fly fishing forums, people fall for the slick marketing. Have you ever seen Scott or Winston place adds in magazines about their
latest/greatest glass rods? Have you ever seen a Steffen add? Did Cortland advertise their Diamondglass or Hardy their Perfection...Orvis fiberglass? Has any
manufacturer marketed a glass rod as going back to simpler, more traditional fishing times? Probably not to all of these. People buy what they see and hear
about. I've been fortunate and curious enough to cast many, many rods in all materials and I've come to my own conclusions as what I enjoy the most.
Last Edited By: Boo
09/12/08 12:55:23.
Edited 1 times.
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wb4tjh |
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Master Guide
Posts: 247 (09/12/08 13:43:03) |
Today, profit, and profit alone, is the number one driving force of big companies like Orvis, ect. When they can capitalize on their name, they can jack up the
price of their goods and those who get misty eyed with nostalgia will pay the price. I'm not saying their products are not top of the line quality, just
that their "name" is a big part of what you are paying for. I own a lot of Orvis and other big name gear, but over the years most of it came from
trades at FFF Conclaves or was bought from the sale page. There are ways around the high prices of top end stuff, if you don't mind being patient. A good
rod is a lifetime investment, so what's wrong with getting one used or off the "discontinued" list? I buy most of my fishing gear this way.
I'm still fishing Fenwick glass rods that I bought new in the early 1970s, and other than a mark here or there, they fish as good today as they did new.
When I just HAVE to HAVE a new model rod, I'll buy a blank and build it up myself.
Fine flyrods can be made from different materials, but bamboo is the Benchmark against which all the rest are compared......
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GRASSNGLASS |
Boo | ||
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Guide
Posts: 197 (09/13/08 11:09:28) |
Boo. I think you have probably fished as much variety as anyone on the board, so believe me when I have a great deal of respect for your opinions on any rod.
I think over the years the only rod you have indicated having an affection for that I didn't care much for was the Orvis Limestone. Then I have to figure
that one rod out of many isn't to much to disagree on or maybe I just had gotten the dog of the Limestones. I'll admit I'm having trouble spending
as much for glass as cane, but there is such great selection of used glass I have to try all of it first.
Barry |
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scud dog |
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Master Guide
Posts: 1026 (09/13/08 19:05:34) |
Boo,
Cortland DID advertise the Diamondglass rods in magazines when they were introduced. Full page and in COLOR! Gave the copy that back to the olden days flavor too. But, for the most part, you are correct. I doubt Mark's gonna spend coin on a mag ad. Seems most newbies I run across have bought into the fast rod hype. Why the obsession with line speed? Saw one on a small stream in summer deep water with a 9'0" #5 TFO. Every newbie likes to think they're "advanced" or will grow into that Sage TCR. If I was planning a marketing campaign for a modestly priced flyrod, I would NEVER refer to it as a starter, beginner's or back-up rod. Folks can figure that out for themselves... |
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WatercolorMan |
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Sport
Posts: 34 (09/17/08 01:45:33) |
I'm new to this board and found it interesting where this thread has gone. Starting with the Hardy rods coming out with a new line. So seemed upset about
prices others didn't. Some seemed concerned about where the rods would be made others could care less. Some thought Hardy would know how to produce a great
rod. Some thought that producing a rod in Korea would make it a better rod because of there experiance in rod building. Others didn't agree.
There was even some concern about Fly Fishing becoming a rich mans sport. We all know it can be, but doesn't have to be. I know some guys who have had over 100 rods in the closet. I also know a guy with 3 rods and reels and a few extra spools and he is very happy. There is a fellow I used to fish with in Utah who had one rod and one reel and only fished an Adams. He spent his money on a drift boat and gas. I call that keeping it simple. So some think $300 to $400 would be to high. A few thought it would be fair. Given the prices of Winstons, T&T's and Scott's ect..... I see things from a different point of view. I have paid some high prices for rods but I see it this way. If I buy and Orvis Rod for lets say $500 dollars and fish with It for 20 years it cost me $25 per year, or $2.08 per Month. At the end of 20 years I sell the rod for lets say $750 or more. What did it cost me. I know do you have the $500 dollars to start with and it's a fair question. Not all of us do, so you may have to lower the bar and pick up a nice casting rod at a lower price from another maker. I have bought a few real nice rods with some flaws at great prices. After all these years of fishing I know when a rod fits me and thats the one I buy. It dosn't matter whos name is one it. Like Boo said "I've come to my own conclusions". It seems to me If the new Hardy rods really cast well and look good they could be a great value. If they don't do it for you look elsewhere. Rods are like buses if you wait another will be along in a little while. Alan |
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Bamboozle |
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Guide
Posts: 121 (09/17/08 05:23:36) |
Just an FYI to keep the NEW Hardy fiberglass rod origin fire burning...
I received an e-mail from Hardy UK and the new rods will NOT be made in the UK. I wasn't told exactly where they were being made so the wild speculation rumor mill can continue unabated until someone gets their hands on one. I also found out that the new Hardy USA facility will open at the end of this month so a field trip will be forthcoming on my part to check things out; maybe even the new glass rods! |
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bulldog1935 |
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Posts: 3646 (09/18/08 07:03:39) Administrator |
What I find just as interesting is that they are reintroducing the Marquis Salmon reels - lightest spey reels ever made
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MountainsAllAround |
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Guide
Posts: 157 (09/18/08 08:02:33) |
I took a quick look at the Hardy Glass rods at the FFR show, though I didn't get a chance to talk to anyone about them.
They were a pretty, darkish olive green color (I think - I'm a little colorblind and the lights were tough). Hardy/Greys are definitely making a new push now that they've split away from Cortland, and there was event talk of bringing back the Princess - one of the alltime great fly reels. Because I've got a very sore elbow, I didn't cast any rods at the show and can't tell you much about the new Hardy glass. They felt OK in my hand, though I couldn't find the 8' 5wt (sort of my baseline rod since I own it from so many other manufacturers). Another glass afficianado (who spent more time with them than I did) said they felt a little tip heavy to him. Hopefully we'll get more on them soon. Also, the Cortland rep confirmed that the new line of Diamondback rods weren't being made by the company, and I was saddened to see the trademark braid wasn't there. The name lives, but the rods are gone. 
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wb4tjh |
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Master Guide
Posts: 253 (09/18/08 08:06:10) |
I think build quality and workmanship will always be the deciding factor in a fly rod, regardless of what it is made of or where it is made. Yeah, graphite is
more expensive, but we're only talking about a couple of ounces of the stuff, so it can't cost but a few bucks more than equivilent fiberglass. I think
a lot of people, like myself, have an inherent dislike for anything made in China. With the news of poisonous pet and even deadly baby food coming out of that
country, and other shoddy, crappy quality products, it gives all of their products a bad taste, no pun intended. I enjoy golf, and 99.9% of the world's
golf clubs are now made in China, including the really expensive brands, and that quality is superb. So I guess there's no realistic reason they can't
turn out top drawer fly rods, too. It's just that stigma of cheapness and shoddy construction that most Chinese goods have. If Hardy can maintain the same
level of quality in their overseas made items as they have in their British made things, I think they will be fine. But I still have a problem paying top
dollar for something that only cost a very small fraction of the selling price to produce.
Fine flyrods can be made from different materials, but bamboo is the Benchmark against which all the rest are compared......
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Arctic Grayling |
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Master Guide
Posts: 46 (09/18/08 12:46:58) |
The more I think about it, the more I think that to me it doesn't really matter whether the new Hardy glass rods are made in England or in Asia.
With the state of the world and the U.S. economy, as long as there are still rods being manufactured in the U.S. I feel that I should be spending my U.S. dollars earned in the U.S. on rods made in the U.S. With manufacturing costs increasing and competition from overseas and decreased consumer funds available for rod purchases, the U.S. rod builders need all the support they can get whether they are building fiberglass, graphite, or bamboo rods. There also seems to be a strong sense of patriotism in this country right now which makes me feel proud to fish an American rod. |
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davelrods |
Grin | ||
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Master Guide
Posts: 113 (09/18/08 23:28:27) |
Lotech Joe wrote: Actually I think fly fishing has always been a rich man's sport. I guess today we just have more rich men. I have absolutely no problem getting $399 for my glass rods built on Lamiglas blanks. Sent one to Brooklyn, NY just today. Looking back, my first "quality" fly rod was a Presentation 7'9" Wonderod in the heavy aluminum tube with the ribs on the outside. Still have it on the wall in my office. I can't quite remember the price back in the 50's but something a little over $30 comes to mind. I'd hate to translate that to current US dollars. Remember gas was $.27 then and a new Ford under $2000. The first fly rod I bought was an IH glass rod that I paid $6 for at the A&N store in Johnstown, PA. That was in the early 50's. I saved my lawn mowing and leaf raking money for most of the summer and fall for that one. Again do the conversion. My Ocean City automatic reel cost a small fotune too. I have no memory of its price, but the wonderfuly bright anodize was gorgeous to my eyes. Then there was high end cane that only doctors, lawyers and corporate tycoons could afford. Nope, I have no memory of bargains in top end fly fishing equipment from way back in the beginning. To believe that premium glass should somehow be cheap is probably an Eagle Claw Mellow Yellow mind set. 
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Bamboozle |
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Guide
Posts: 122 (09/19/08 06:06:36) |
MountainsAllAround wrote:That would be GREAT news! |
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bulldog1935 |
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Posts: 3657 (09/19/08 06:29:09) Administrator |
I don't care if they're made in Asia, as long as they pass along the savings to us. If they're cutting their costs to a fraction and charging us
the same just for their good name, it will catch up with them.
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- Welcome, Messages, Claves, News, and FAQs
- Fishing with Fiberglass Fly Rods
- Glass Tech
- Collecting Fiberglass Fly Rods
- What's New on the Market
- Rod Pictures
- Classic Fly Reels
- Another Spin on Glass
- Rod Building & Tackle Tinkering
- The Tying Bench
- Fiberglass Fly Rods For Sale
- Fiberglass Fly Rods Wanted
- Fiberglass Flyrodders Wiki
