The spine of the rod

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armyflyfisher	The spine of the rod	Lead	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 554 (02/04/08 23:05:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I have a newbie question to ask all you experienced rod builders..... I've read till my eyes hurt and got a headache, and in all my readings I've yet to see anything definitive. I've seen conflicting opinions about where to place guides in relation to the spine (or spline) of the blank. I've heard... 1. Place the guides along the spine if it's a 6wt or higher to absorb the cast and throw heavier flys farther... 2. Place the guides opposite the spine on 5wt and lighter blanks for more delicate presentations with lighter flys... 3. Place the guides along the straightest axis... 4. Place them opposite the spine for rod flex while fighting fish... 5. It doesn't matter... Assuming for this discussion that the "spine" is the outside of the curve when a blank is rolled (so that we've defined our terms).....where do you guys place the guides? Thanks, David
pearow	Re: The spine of the rod	#1	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 1808 (02/05/08 00:09:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'm probably committing sin here in rodbuilding, but i totally disregard spline, spine, or whatever its called. I simply build on the straightest plane; i look at the butt, line up the straightest side, mark it; do the same with the tip; then put them together, look down the length of the rod and mark the straightest side; I either build on that side, or on the 180 degree opposite of that, according to which will be the straightest with the guides on it; sometimes thats judgement, which occasionally is bad-p-
OhioOutdoorsman	spine	#2	[-]
Guide Posts: 205 (02/05/08 08:00:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I do spine/spline, but I don't really think it matter which side. I've done both and can't tell the difference. I was in the #5 camp until I built a rod and didn't spline and it was a very poor tracking rod. I will say that glass and lower modulus graphite seem to have less of a descerable spline/spine than high modulous graphite and I think are better easier to cast in any plane for that reason....a real advantage on the small streams I tend to fish.
pearow	Re: spine	#3	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 1808 (02/05/08 09:10:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I agree with Ohio about the high modulus graphite; i think finding the spline on the fast graphites to be more critical than on the lower modulus and on the glass. I go thru the steps to find it, but because of crooked blanks rarely ever use it-p-
Andymanyankee	Importance Of Spine	#4	[-]
Posts: 1195 (02/05/08 10:56:57) Rod Builder Deluxe and 1st eBay Oracle Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hello I recently read an article in Rod Crafter about Spine and how important it is to align your guides along the spine. They had a sample of different blanks some with guides randomly placed and others placed on the spine. When the blanks were put through a flex test the blanks with guides set randomly were deflecting off center and the blanks with the guides on the spine were straight. The point was if you want a rod to put the bait where you want it align the guides with the Spine. Accuracy is very important regardless of the type of rod you are building.Spine random misalignment = poor performance. The spine can be used by an experienced rod maker to make the rod a precise casting tool. Flex Curve,Power Transfer/Transfer of Energy,Spine Alignment,Dampening,Wind resistance /Tracking . All are very important factors when making a rod. The correct Spine alignment has and effect on all of the above to some extent. Knowing how to work with these factors and effectively adjust them is what separates the men from the boys so to say. Anyone can wrap a rod and make it pretty, how the rod performs on the water is what really matters. How the finished rod performs depends on how experienced the maker ! Depending on the understanding you have of the dynamics. When I talk about Guide Size and Placement that Placement is not just the guide spacing it includes the placement on the blank in relationship to the Spine. Determining proper placement can only be done with a working knowledge of the dynamics and knowing how to make them work to your advantage. I am a bit over the top on this and I am sure some already understand this concept. No this is not the stuff you read in books. Next time you hear someone say what is so special about this or that guys rods he builds on the same off the shelf blanks I do. Think Again ! Or you hear some guy say "gives me confidence that this is going to be a versitile rod in my arsenal." Think Again ! Or someone asks" none of us make our own blanks where do you find your creativity or innovation? " Think Again ! Or when some guy doing this stuff as his life long passion gets a little testy ask your self why and - Think Again ! SPINE IS VERY IMPORTANT TO IGNORE IT AND IT'S MAGIC IS TO IGNORE ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF A ROD BUILD ! ANY ROD BUILD ! Sorry for the caps but I wanted to make sure I got my point across. Tight Lines To Each Their Own Loops ! Andy M "FISH AND VISITORS STINK AFTER 3 DAYS"
alpago	Re: spine	#5	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 344 (02/05/08 11:31:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thanks David for the question, I was about to ask about this and Thanks Andy for detail explanation. I read Doug McNair article about the spine and learn to find it through that article. However he did mentioned about align the guide along the spine for accuracy and the opposite side of the spine (180 degre) for distance, or the other way around can't remember. Maybe you can comment on that Andy? Thanks Al
pearow	Re: spine	#6	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 1808 (02/05/08 13:45:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Andy; what do you do with a crooked blank? usually only the tip, but sometimes the other section? Do you just let the rod be crooked? Or are all your blanks straight or curved on the spine?-p-
Andymanyankee	Spinless Spine or Back bone ?	#7	[-]
Posts: 1195 (02/05/08 14:21:56) Rod Builder Deluxe and 1st eBay Oracle Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hello So tell me what's more important the way the rod looks or the way it performs ? I could really give a rats rump if the rod is perfectly straight or appears straight . All you are doing is doing your best to hide an imperfection and by doing so sacrificing the performance of the rod. BTW Blanks can be straightened !But seldom worth the effort as the set is most often due to a thin wall or off set mandrel. Keep building them your way . I'll keep doing them my way. One thing for sure you are not going to get my trade secrets you will need to develop some of your own ! I help when I can and give hints when I can I gave up a big hint above now we will see if you can do your homework and spend the time you need to put into this concept to be able to use spine to your advantage. You can do it your way when building your rods keeping them straight. I will continue my life's work making the rods I put my name on performing to their optimum potential. Tight Lines and Always Spine Loops Andy M "FISH AND VISITORS STINK AFTER 3 DAYS"
pearow	Re: spine	#8	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 1808 (02/05/08 16:51:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	well, mine ain't always straight neither; thanks for the info. Another question (although I may be at my limit)Why is it that the rod always bends to the guides after you put them on; I've checked many of the old heddons, berkleys, W&M's and they almost all bend to the guides when you put the butt end on a marble and apply pressure from the tip top? Not all of them do it, but about 9 of 10. Is that because of the feet on the guides, mis- direct the spine? I dont think they would be spining the old cheapies. I appreciate the info you provide-p-
OhioOutdoorsman	Re: spine	#9	[-]
Guide Posts: 205 (02/05/08 17:54:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Spining/spling is not hard. It doesn't take so long, so why not do it. I saw the winston rod makers put them opooistite the spine (outside curvature). So I do it this way. Now blank sections often have more than one decernable spline. I find the one that is most pronounced, and put the guides opposite of this. I find it either by rolling on a table while appling pressure or use a weight tied to a string and a paperclip and weight the rod in the middle of the blank section while balanced on on my rod wrapper. It can't hurt. It has helped in my experience. Sorry, deleted the offensive parts of my post. Not worth arguing over.
jgestar	Re: The spine of the rod	#10	[-]
Posts: 4207 (02/05/08 19:00:14) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I always spline my rods. It is a very rare blank that doesn't have a spline. As OhioOutdoorsman said, it isn't hard to do, so why not. Like guide positioning, there are many theories and ideas about splining and how they relate to guide location. And, like guide positioning, there is no published scientific data that I have seen.* Personally, I want my forward cast to bend the rod in the softest direction. That way, the rod is not jumping to the left or right during my forward cast. Note, I didn't say that's where I put the guides! I have a bit of a sideways delivery, so the guides would have to be positioned accordingly. For me, that would be about 10-20 off from the spline. Unless that spline is very unusual, 30 from the spline will probably give you the same effect as right on. However, for some casters, positioning the guides in a different spot may be just the ticket. Pearow, with your last question, are you asking "why is it that rods with mounted guides have a spline that lines up with the guides?". If so, a double footed snake guide will make a "stiffer" spot on the rod and a good rod has quite a few of them in a line. Tom * There are vast quantities of published opinions, including mine. But those aren't cold, hard, unbiased, carefully measured data. If the data are out there, I haven't seen them.
Raybow	Re: The spine of the rod	#11	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 311 (02/05/08 19:46:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	So Andy, elaborate on your quote: "Determining proper placement can only be done with a working knowledge of the dynamics and knowing how to make them work to your advantage." From my perception of what you said it mattered much about the spine of the blank. BUT, you also left room for possible options , maybe?, depending on what you want? For some of us newbies in the re-build/new builds please explain. Reason being is a person's perception to dynamics and what proves desired dynamics in a rod. Thanx......... Ray..............
pearow	Re: The spine of the rod	#12	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 1808 (02/05/08 20:04:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tom; my point is that, in my opinion, when the guides are attached the rod will bend on that plane; so why build a crooked rod that is properly splined? I see it as build the straightest rod possible and the spline is going to be insignificant anyway. This has be argued a thousand times, so there's no answer, just opinion. Try this; take four or five of your old glass rods down and test the spine; most of them will bend on the curve of the guides; some won't but most will. I do not believe the rod companies spined all their rods, especially the cheaper models. Rod reps have told me that people won't pay $400 for a crooked rod, even though its correctly spined-p-
Raybow	Re: The spine of the rod	#13	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 311 (02/05/08 21:01:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	'P' I don't know Tom, but I was gonna mention about the time involved in Q.C. in some of the mass producers on all (includinging modern High dollar end rods) but esp. the older glass rods. From my experiance glass is not impervious to moisture and or shape when a rod is not properly stored. Fiberglass if kept in a closet or garage or shop leaned against the wall will take whats called a 'set' . So this changes everything about the spine that some seem to worry about. I'm thinking in your direction in this: a good example is how I cast a rod for diferent situations and yes that does deviate from that of what the 'spine' would be. In other words; " Whats a crooked rod? " I bet if I was to strip down some of my rods that cost more than I had sense to buy , they'd be a crooked rod. This is a very interesting subject, esp, to those of us newbie fellers. Thanx.........'P'........... Ray.................
whrlpool	Re: The spine of the rod	#14	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 1105 (02/05/08 21:09:03) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	It's not quite no mysterious as made out. The curve and the spline usually coinincide. That is why pearows method usually works. Check by the roll and flex method first and mark the "sides" where the flexed blank stabilizes just before it "jumps" and then the other side it "jumps" to. Now look for the curve; almost always it will correspond to one or the other of these sides. The guides go on the outside of the curve, because their weight tends to straighten the blank when it is held in fishing position or to start a cast. Other than that, I see little to worry about. Here's why: when the position of the spline matters significantly or you've misjudged it, you can tell almost immediately. (Make sure you've added reinforcing wraps at the ferrules before doing this). With the rod held horizontally and the guide side down, try to flex (wiggle the rod) rapidly in a single vertical plane swept by its "top" and "bottom" sides. Mounting the tiptop and a few guides helps. If these are misaligned, you can see the tip deviate from a straight up and down path. I like to have one guide at the node in the tip section (roughly a third down, but easy to see). This is the spot that doesn't move at all as the blank wiggles. The flexing "wave" passes through it. If you see this spot deviating left or rght, again, something is out of wack. Try again, but rarely will you need to. Ideally, if you wiggle the rod, the tip top and all other guides are progressing up and down through a single fan-like plane, not a wavy, crinkly one. After all that, if you make a mistake such that the misalignment matters, you will also know. (I have done this twice on two different rods that I was replacing guides on by my own forgetfulness as to how I marked the blank). Wiggle/test cast again when the guides are on. If there's a significant error, you'll feel the tip going sideways from the plane of the cast. Start over and remember how you marked the blank this time. Other than that, if you can't notice it when working the rod, it doesn't matter. Sometimes you can notice it and it doesn't matter. Oddly, I have a cheapo graphite rod I got as a loaner/backup beater/pan fisher. I have never seen such a crookedy rod of any material--the tip is twisty shaped. If I had it as a blank, I don't know how I'd figure out, except maybe trial and error, where to put the guides. But in random mass production, it came out fine: that thing casts powerfully with tack-driver accuracy, but I still don't take it trout fishing.
Andymanyankee	Re: The spine of the rod	#15	[-]
Posts: 1195 (02/05/08 22:32:25) Rod Builder Deluxe and 1st eBay Oracle Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hello I just returned from my Monthly board meeting. The club will be having a drawing for a Winston Ibis 9' 4 wt 4 P.C. The rod has been handled by a good number of folks looking it over. So I brought it back to my shop to clean it up and polish the blank a bit so it will be devoid of finger prints etc for the drawing next Saturday. At the meeting we assembled the rod and the first thing I did was to sight down the rod to check the guide alignment. This rod has quite a crook in the last 2 sections SET if you like. Everyone that sighted it all saw the same thing ! We had another Ibis 8'6" 5 Wt that will go in another drawing in March When assembled it had a very similar Crook or Set if you like. This could have been disguised with a change in guide placement but no the guides were placed in relation to the Spine. Tom has hit the nail on the head with his assessment of how to work with the spine to your advantage. You have to be careful when adjusting the guide placement off spine as to not create the unnatural center line from the guide feet . By doing so the blanks is fighting its natural center line (Spine)during the casting stroke and robbing the natural transfer of energy. Some blanks are harder to find the spine than others some have more than one sweet spot . Whirlpool is correct in saying that if you are off spine you will know right off when dong a placement sample. I don't agree that sets or the straightest plane coincide with the spine however.Sometimes yes and sometime no it depends on the lay up so I wouldn't use that as a rule of thumb. Depending on how I want to adjust the flex curve and power transfer of a given blank is how I decide what side of the spine the guides will go or if the tip will have the guides on the spine and the butt opposite or visa versa etc etc. If person throws left hand casts the placement of the guides slightly off spine may help to get the persons cast to track straighter or aid in a tailing loop problem. Last summer I built a rod off the same blank as another fellow both rods were cast by a number of people afterwards people were speculating that I did something very different with my blank but no one includeing the other rods builder could figure it out. They thought I added stints or my Nasty Foam or it was the guides I used or my guide spacing. It was none of the above it was my guide placement in relation to the Spine that made it special . So again I say ! Spine is very important to ignore it and it's magic is to ignore one of the most important aspects of a rod build any rod build ! Thats what works for me take it or leave it . Tight Lines Spine Loops Andy M "FISH AND VISITORS STINK AFTER 3 DAYS"
pearow	Re: The spine of the rod	#16	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 1808 (02/05/08 22:48:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	very good info; very good discussion-p-
armyflyfisher	Re: The spine of the rod	#17	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 554 (02/05/08 23:35:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Wow.....I didn't know that "splining" a rod would spark this much discusssion!! First, THANKS Andy. I (I'm sure I speak for everyone here) value and appreciate your willingness to share your years of experience with those of us that simply want to build the best rod we can so that we have a fishing tool we can take pride in when we pursue our passion on the water. I recognize that your knowledge didn't come overnight and instead took years of work. I'm NOT trying to steal any trade secrets, just trying to NOT make any mistakes and do a good job on my personal gear. Thanks to everyone really for your opinions. I read an intersting thing today where someone said that the guides create an artificial spline (spine) due to the added stiffness they lend the blank after installed. It almost sounds as if I should do my best to locate the spline, temporarily fix the guides accordingly, then test cast and adjust as necessary. Thoughts?? ....and I thought that wrapping would be the hard part.....!!! David
OhioOutdoorsman	Re: The spine of the rod	#18	[-]
Guide Posts: 205 (02/06/08 06:19:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Sounds like what I do. Wrapping and finishing will be harder than spining your rod. If you take your time, your rod will end up at least as good as a quality factory build, if not better. There are plenty of books by Art Scheck, Tom Kirkman, and others as well as magazines and forums. Deleted the offensive parts of my post. Many apologies.
Flytackle	Re: The spine of the rod	#19	[-]
Posts: 790 (02/06/08 08:34:58) Board Founder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	My experiance has been that spining a two piece tip over butt blank is worth it; spining a three piece or greater spigot ferruled blank has not. Just my 2 cents! Alec
Andymanyankee	Re: The spine of the rod	#20	[-]
Posts: 1195 (02/06/08 11:59:05) Rod Builder Deluxe and 1st eBay Oracle Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hello I understand your mind set Alec. Consider this on your next 3 or 4 PC project. If each of the 3 or 4 sections have the spine randomly off center lets say each toward an opposite plane to exaggerate the reference. Lets say it's a 4 sectioned rod and the first section butt the spine is on top the next to the right the next down and the last left of center. Let call that the 4 points with each of the 4 points going in different directions. Now lets consider the lay up of the blank as one piece with the spine in one direction on one natural center spine. Now we cut that 1 PC master blank into 4 sections and ferrule the sections . At this point we now have the potential to miss align the spine depending on how the builder positions the guides. If you do not spine each section and align them accordingly you have lost the natural spine and also the reference point on which the master blank was made. Lets look closer at the spine what is a spine how is it that we have a spine. The spine is the point of the blank on the axis that has the greatest density. Density = Stiffness= a point of greatest resistance to the flex curve. So why would we want that point of greatest resistance 1st to be on a random plane on a say 1 PC rod and 2nd why would we want in the case of a multi sectioned 4 PC rod that point of greatest resistance to be randomly positioned in 4 different directions ? Where is your reference point now ? What have you gained by random misalignment ? How do you determine if the blank is performing to the intended designed action ? If not from what point do you work to adjust the performance ? If spine if of little or no importance why do blank manufactures recommend you work off the spine ? Other than the point that p made about straightness what other advantage is there to building a rod with out working off the spine other than saving a little time and the need to keep the spine as a reference point. Another thing to consider about crooks or sets as they are at times referred to . When a blank takes a set it generally curves in the direction of the least resistance least density finding the thinest wall That does not necessarily mean the the wall opposite has the greatest density only that the inside of the curve has the least. So lets say during the manufacturing process that an area of the tip has less resin or the tension of the binder is off slightly or the material has shifted on the mandrel there are many factors to consider. Many people would put the guides on the opposite plane and the weight of the guides etc will help straighten the blank. So now what you have is a thin wall on top during your back cast the blank is flexing more and during the power stroke forward you have lost energy. Thats not what I am looking to achieve when I make a rod I want the forward stroke and the back stroke to be the same not softer in one direction and faster in the other how about you ? I would venture a Guess thats why both the Ibis rods I mentioned above both hooked left. I would venture another guess if the vast majority of fly fishers were left handed they would hook right. I hope I have been some help with this. Rod making is a profession for many and it is a science for many as well I found that comment rather off hand. It is not my intention to cast any feelings of guilt either please feel free to talk about all the inner workings of what ever you do to make your daily bread . Clemens,Phillips,Garcia ,Pfeiffer,Marshall,McClaine all give excellent information on working with the spine. I like Mel Marshell's book How to make your own fishing rod Outdoor life book Stackpole Books copyright 1978. Quote; "Before you do any actual building at all on your blank,though there's a very important first step you must undertake.Like laying the foundation on which a building rest,if this first step is taken carefully .you will have a true base on which to work as you convert your blank into a finished rod.Don't Omit it. FIRST STEP LOCATING THE SPINE ." Then from this point Mel gives a very in depth explanation of spine and how to find it and the importance of how to work with it in plain easy to understand terms. So in answer to your question that started all this basically most Fly Rod Makers find the spine and place the guides opposite the spine the best advice I can give you is locate the spine mark it tape the guides on opposite the spine and test the rod. Then try putting them on the spine as well and work from there. Tight Lines and Spineless ? Loops Andy M PS Another hint I seldom purchase 1 blank the min for me is 2 this way I can compare the 2 blanks when determining my guide placement . Most all of us have a fishing pal or 2 and when finished with the 2 rods pick the one you like most and either give or sell the 2nd rod to a friend or just make your rod with 2 tips. It makes the process allot easier for me ! "FISH AND VISITORS STINK AFTER 3 DAYS"

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