Achieving Glass feel w/ graphite blanks

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davelrods	My question exactly.	#41	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 143 (10/16/08 09:07:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Mojorizing wrote: Lou, no disrespect, but why would you want to find a graphite rod that fishes like glass, while you're able to fish with the real thing? Is it just the lighter weight. I don't really notice the difference in weight between a 4w glass or 4w graphite. I'm sure the graphite is quite a bit lighter, but myself, I don't notice a lot of difference. Nothing wrong with overlining a rod if that is what makes the rod comfortable for you, but contending that you then have a glass rod action is sort of funny, in my mind. Like you said here, why not just buy a glass rod. Fly fishing seems to be a mass of strange rationalizations. (G)
davelrods		#42	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 144 (10/16/08 09:20:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Loudog99 wrote: So it looks like I'm not the only one then who feels that the current trend in rod sales is what's fueling rod design, not the fishability of said rods. I share this point of view with anyone who is willing to listen because it is the truth of the matter. People entering the sport shouldn't be told that they need 5 different rods to fish freshwater.......now if you want to buy the 5 different rods because you like the variety.....welcome to the club. I love rods and build them because variety is the spice of life, but realistically I could easily get by with 3 rods. A fenglass 605 for gills/ small bass- My beloved Forecast 764 (6wt) for bigger flies and average bass- and a 9' graphite 7/8wt for the salt which could easily fish 7-10wt lines depending on the conditions. But then, I would have to give up my 4-5 other toys and that ain't happening! The bottom line is that it should be our choice to buy all the rods we want...not be told that we NEED all those rods. The fact that rods are being sold with the emphasis on casting is a disservice to those entering the sport. It is much easier to learn how to cast if you can actually feel the rod load and the current state of the "Broom Stick Wars" is really unfortunate for those trying to learn this sport. Somebody needs to tell them that....might as well be people like us. Afterall, I could care less how many rods Sage sells. Lou "> I'm always amused at the characterization of graphite rods as broom sticks. You really do need to get around a bit. There are literally hundreds of very comfortable graphite rods currently available. Stop by your Sage dealer and ask to cast some of the TXL rods. Try someone's now discontinued SLT rod. Find one of the several lengths and line weights of Sage SPL rods. Dig out a couple of the really light line LL rods. If Sage doesn't do it for you, stop by any Orvis dealer and see if they have any of the older "Far an Fine" rods. Any of the traditional Winston graphite rods will show you comfort and softness. There is lots of stuff out there that is nowhere even close to being characterized as "stiff as a broom stick." Last Edited By: davelrods 10/16/08 09:32:08. Edited 1 times.
davelrods	I agree, but	#43	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 145 (10/16/08 09:30:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	lpirrone wrote: interesting. sort of a reverse psychology. challenging rod. hmm. only for experts.hmm. if i show up on the river with this rod i will be seen (if only by me) as an expert. till i try to actually cast the thing. let the guys with the big bucks buy into that crap. at those prices i would not care if the rod cast itself. when i fly fish i want to get into a mind free zone (some would call it "zen".) where i don't have to concentrate on my rod to make it cast. i want to drink in the surroundings, the sounds and smells. i don't want to have to work at casting. I enjoy rods that are an extension of my psyche when I'm all alone on the water, too, but recognize that to some folks fly fishing and fly casting is a performance sport. They are looking for the ultimate tool to sharpen their skills. Sage has had their TCR and now TCX rods for those folks. They have lots of other rods at the same time to please the rest of us. If they have a market for these hyper rods, then more power to them. Watch the salt guys at the casting pools at the fly shows, who are really good, can get to the 100 foot mark consistently. No question those guys are looking for those hyper rods. Is there really anything wrong with that. I don't see it being imposed on the rest of us. I think we should be gratified that our sport is diverse enough to cover everything. Last Edited By: davelrods 10/16/08 09:39:58. Edited 1 times.
davelrods	Yep line companies surely have fiddled with line weights	#44	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 146 (10/16/08 09:52:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	jgestar wrote: Mind if I ramble and rant a bit too? Not only have the marketing wonks twisted fly rod design toward soulless, uncastable sticks; now they are messing with fly lines. For example, the SA GPX and Rio Grande are marketed as "Made half-size heavier to more fully load fast-action graphite rods" Yup, I'm not making this up. They sell you a wink, wink, "5 weight" that by AFTMA standards is really a 6. The pity of it is, the line companies are making the best plastic ever. The lines float like cork and cast like greased snot. The selection of tapers is bewildering, but wonderful. Yet, with their top selling products, they ignore the AFTMA labeling standards. Cortland does it too, but at least they label their heavy lines with half sizes! If it wasn't so sad, it would make me laugh. Like Andy, I don't believe anything printed on the side of the rod, except the maker name. I'll choose the matching line. I have a 7' Garcia marked 6/7 that casts beautifully with a 5 weight. It may have put my Fenwick FF70 out to pasture. On the other hand, my Fenwick FF756 is labeled as a 6 weight. To me, it's an uninspiring 6. But it lit up with a a Cabelas Prestige 7 weight line (it's a nice line actually). Wow. Then I weighed the line - 202 grains - an 8 weight. $%*#! But at least now I know what line I will use on an FF756! In the future, I will weigh EVERY line I buy when I get it. And if it's not right, it's going back. Tom But the bottom line is really the amount of line you typically carry in the air. Sage took a bad rap for designating line weights for their RPL rods based on way too much line in the air. To enjoy a 590-4RPL rod with a 5 wt line demanded that you have at least 30 feet of it in the air for every cast. Hell, I seldom cast more than 30 feet. If I'm carrying 10 feet of line in the air, that line quickly becomes a 3 wt. Thus choosing a line that works for the rod you are using and the lengths of casts you typically enjoy is the key. I've always put two line weights on a rod, simply to suggest a range of lines a rod might be used with. Line choice is highly subjective as most on here suggest. Several years ago Sage realized the error of their ways and began rating their rods based on intended casting distances. A salt rod might be rated for 50 foot casts while a light line shorter trout rated for 20 foot casts. I think most of the rod companies now have gotten line recommendations more in line with rod usage. In recent years, I've used Sage XP, SLT, Z-axis rods almost exclusively with the recommended line sizes when previously with SP and RPL rods I usually overlined one and sometimes two sizes. I think all that is in the past, at least with Sage now. Since I am a Sage dealer, I know much more about their rods first hand than I do others, but have gotten the feeling that all the rod companies have "seen the light" in recent years. Now line manufacturers might well be a different matter. All these new tapers really do get confusing. For example, Sage changed from SA to Rio for their line manufacturing last year. I've used the Sage lines for a good while. There is a definite difference in the new Rio lines. They seem to work well, but they take some getting used to. Must be a totally different taper.
Loudog99		#45	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 499 (10/16/08 13:10:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hi Dave, I've met you and have the utmost respect for the work you do- I consider you a true artist. I also appreciate the fact that you, along with everyone else here, has their own opinions on rodbuilding, fishing, and casting. I wanted to at least address a few points that you made in reference to some things I wrote. Davelrods wrote: Nothing wrong with overlining a rod if that is what makes the rod comfortable for you, but contending that you then have a glass rod action is sort of funny, in my mind. Like you said here, why not just buy a glass rod. Fly fishing seems to be a mass of strange rationalizations. (G) My reasoning for this is simple- IM6 blanks are CHEAP! I am CHEAP. I rarely have even $50 to spend on a blank- let alone $75 to $200 for a quality glass blank. Sure, I could buy a glass rod on Ebay for $30, but it would take some work to make it fishable at that price. The same $30 will buy a Forecast Im6 blank, which if lined with the right line will feel very close to glass. All I know is that my 7.5' "4wt" Forecast lined with a WF6 line is amazingly smooth with 20' of line out. I can pick up 20' of line and shoot another 15' with one hand- it's that smooth. One back cast and done. That's all I need a rod to do as I mainly fish for bass and panfish out of a kayak. Davelrods wrote: I'm always amused at the characterization of graphite rods as broom sticks. You really do need to get around a bit. There are literally hundreds of very comfortable graphite rods currently available. Stop by your Sage dealer and ask to cast some of the TXL rods. Try someone's now discontinued SLT rod. Find one of the several lengths and line weights of Sage SPL rods. Dig out a couple of the really light line LL rods. If Sage doesn't do it for you, stop by any Orvis dealer and see if they have any of the older "Far an Fine" rods. Any of the traditional Winston graphite rods will show you comfort and softness. There is lots of stuff out there that is nowhere even close to being characterized as "stiff as a broom stick." You are right- I did paint graphite with a broad brush and there are certainly moderate action options out there that are hardly "broom sticks". However, the SLT and often coveted LL rods were discontinued by Sage- why? The TXL rods are all rated for super light lines- correct? That does me no good as I fish for bass and panfish and rarely fish anything under a WF4. Far and Fine and Winston Im6 are fine rods- but they are costly. If Sage is turning a corner and producing rods that load at appropriate distances then Kudos to them. However, most of the new lines of rods I see in the major catalogs each year are touted as faster action/ higher strain/ lighter weight. The one or two "medium/ fast" action offerings that the major companies do have are always touted as being beginner/ or backup rods. Why? I just don't get why the latest and greatest rod lines are always geared towards the hyper guys who view flyfishing as a performance sport. My point is that some of the most touted slower action graphite rods have been discontinued or are too expensive, and there aren't many "NEW" offerings to fill the niche of folks who prefer a slower action. What are the hundreds of options in comfortable rods that haven't been discontinued? I started this topic a while back to simply offer some insight into a practice that works for me. Take an inexpensive IM6 blank, load it with one or two line weights higher than recommended and you will have a very glass "like" feel. It's a good solution for those looking for modern options but are turned off by the current state of offerings from the rod manufacturers. Thanks to all for the comments- it's great to see all of the different aproaches that we take towards this obsession called fly fishing. I need to get out and fish and stop obsessing over gear- it's too exhausting. Lou
davelrods		#46	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 147 (10/16/08 14:18:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Loudog99 wrote: Hi Dave, I've met you and have the utmost respect for the work you do- I consider you a true artist. I also appreciate the fact that you, along with everyone else here, has their own opinions on rodbuilding, fishing, and casting. I wanted to at least address a few points that you made in reference to some things I wrote. You are right- I did paint graphite with a broad brush and there are certainly moderate action options out there that are hardly "broom sticks". However, the SLT and often coveted LL rods were discontinued by Sage- why? The TXL rods are all rated for super light lines- correct? That does me no good as I fish for bass and panfish and rarely fish anything under a WF4. Far and Fine and Winston Im6 are fine rods- but they are costly. If Sage is turning a corner and producing rods that load at appropriate distances then Kudos to them. However, most of the new lines of rods I see in the major catalogs each year are touted as faster action/ higher strain/ lighter weight. The one or two "medium/ fast" action offerings that the major companies do have are always touted as being beginner/ or backup rods. Why? I just don't get why the latest and greatest rod lines are always geared towards the hyper guys who view flyfishing as a performance sport. My point is that some of the most touted slower action graphite rods have been discontinued or are too expensive, and there aren't many "NEW" offerings to fill the niche of folks who prefer a slower action. What are the hundreds of options in comfortable rods that haven't been discontinued? I started this topic a while back to simply offer some insight into a practice that works for me. Take an inexpensive IM6 blank, load it with one or two line weights higher than recommended and you will have a very glass "like" feel. It's a good solution for those looking for modern options but are turned off by the current state of offerings from the rod manufacturers. Thanks to all for the comments- it's great to see all of the different aproaches that we take towards this obsession called fly fishing. I need to get out and fish and stop obsessing over gear- it's too exhausting. Lou Actually, I think there is a greater availability of softer graphite rods now than ever before. I think all the rod companies have recognized the direction toward too much power for the stated line weight in rod trends several years ago and have indeed come along with much more comfortable fare. Yes some of the rod lines have been discontinued but have simply been replaced. SPL really replaced LL, though they retained several of the LL rods in the VPS lite series. SLT has been replaced by ZXL, though I do think they are not quite the soft rods SLT was. When Loomis came with the Stream Dance series they really came with some relaxed actions. St Croix has emphasized their midrange Avid series which are quite moderate. Winston keeps going back to their traditional rods. My only point is that moderate action graphite is alive and healthy. I surely can't fault you for wanting to use some of the inexpensive blanks for your preferred fishing. I too like many of them and consider them some of my long time favorites. My Forecast 7'9" 3 wt was my favorite small stream rod for years. This year I used a glass 7'6" rod, but the glass rod is not in any way a superior rod to the Forecast rod. You are right about the blank prices. The inexpensive graphite blanks really are a bargain. Yep, I always enjoy discussing all the various directions of what we do. New looks at all that we've taken for granted for years, keeps it fresh.
dudley		#47	[-]
Sport Posts: 77 (10/16/08 15:59:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'd like to stick my nose into this subject too The other day I was fishing a open beach in Rhode Island in a stiff onshore breeze. The other guys there were complaining about the wind, but it didn't occur to me that it was a problem... I was doing fine I was fishing a 10' IM6 8wt with a 10wt line.... a rod that I got from Sportsman's Guide for 20 bucks. If this was a glass rod... it would have weighed at least 7-8 ozs.... But this rod balanced out great with my System 2 10/11 With one false cast I could put my fly out where I wanted it to go. The guys with the expensive sticks packed it up and went home. I caught some fish.
whrlpool		#48	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 629 (10/17/08 06:22:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I haven't been able to keep up with these discussions lately, and just got to savor this one. Tom Morgan has always been among the best in the distinction between a casting tool and a fishing tool. That's one reason I saved my 70's RL Winston catalog, since the rod action descriptions are so outstanding. In general as in many outdoor sports, high-tech, high-claim equipment is for people who don't really know the sport very well, or in this case, for people who don't know how to fish. Old Andy has a great point about fly lines. You know, I had an 8-weight orange level line that I bought at Montgomery Wards about 1970. For the next 20 years, mostly bass fishing, I fished that line (casting heavier "flies" is harder on a line, especially at the leader attachment) harder and more than any other line I used in trout fishing, which I did more, but also had more lines used more intermittently. That line always floated like a cork, showed little wear, and I didn't even turn it around for maybe 15 years, and then only because it looked kind of dirty, not because it needed to be turned. It performed as well as ever. So I always laughed as I saw the high-tech claims about high-floating, long-lasting, supple, durable and so on new lines. I probably used that line more in any one summer month over many years than some folks use these new ones over 10 years. I did, by the way, clean the line a few times. In all walks of life, I can't figure why anyone wants to go around the block to get next door. Get fiberglass to cast like fiberglass. As to overall similar casting feel and fishability, the less expensive the graphite rod, the more likely it will fill that bill, assuming the fittings are half-decent. Scientific Angler's green 8 to 9 foot 5 and 6 weight rods, about $20 at Wal-mart, are a good example. Remember that IM 6 until recently, was the broomstick stiff graphite. Overloading stiff graphite is inviting failure, and people who buy these things (or the next generation stiffer still)--I don't care what price range--break them all the time, if not in clumsy casting or careless asembly at the ferrules, by awkward "J" bending in playing or landing fish. Again, they may know how to cast, they may know what's hip in fly rod status based marketing, but they don't know how to fish. The earliest graphite rods, still stiffer than 'glass, were of lower modulus (stiffness) than any of the IM designated graphite fibers of today. The closest you can get to that these days in graphite is the lowly cheap "starter" or composite rods, which are often surprisingly good fishing rods, reminiscent of glass, but not glass. Even the early Fenwicks (before the IM X days)--excellent points made by WB4jh above--were maketed "HMG" which stood for "high modulus graphite" and were a step up in that regard from other graphite. But today, they have quite a soft or slow feel compared to later generations of graphite. I have a 5 weight that does feel positively fiberglass-like compared to a same-length Sage 5 weight, 15 years newer, that I also have, but even that one feels "soft" compared to high-tech graphite of today. I like both those rods, but when the 'glass fishing characteristics are most desirable for the fishing I have planned, I fish fiberglass.
pearow		#49	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 1312 (10/17/08 06:53:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	fantastic discussion guys; I really never thought about why I like what i like, but you guys did it for me. I still have a fenwick HMG; great rod for bassin; St. Croix Imperial(the old brown ones) I sold mine to Bud years ago and have only recently found another one; the Batson forecast blanks are good examples of the slower to moderate graphites, mentioned earlier in the discussion. The old shakespear "graf-sticks" cheap, but nice slow graphite. You have to mess with a lot of rods to acquire your personal tastes; some of the Scott graphites fit me like a glove; thanks for the insight; what i like about this site-p-
whrlpool		#50	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 630 (10/17/08 07:41:55) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Pearow, wow. The late '70s Scott graphites (unsanded scrim layer as I recall) were among the best ever in the casting-fishing feel most folks here seem to like. The instant I first saw a guy casting a 9' for 6 I knew it was an exceptional rod, and within 10 minutes I had talked with him, yakety-yak an hour later and I was fishing with that rod. They were pretty expensive to me back then, so I never did buy one. Not 'glass, but 'glass enhanced if there ever was such a thing--about as good as it gets. I wish I had bought one, as well as two or three of their fiberglass. About as close as you get to those early Scott graphites are, once again, the inexpensive no IM# designation graphites. The Scott, of course, would still stand out among them, but not that much as everyman's technology of today was way ahead technology 30 years ago.
davelrods		#51	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 150 (10/17/08 09:33:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	whrlpool wrote: Pearow, wow. The late '70s Scott graphites (unsanded scrim layer as I recall) were among the best ever in the casting-fishing feel most folks here seem to like. The instant I first saw a guy casting a 9' for 6 I knew it was an exceptional rod, and within 10 minutes I had talked with him, yakety-yak an hour later and I was fishing with that rod. They were pretty expensive to me back then, so I never did buy one. Not 'glass, but 'glass enhanced if there ever was such a thing--about as good as it gets. I wish I had bought one, as well as two or three of their fiberglass. About as close as you get to those early Scott graphites are, once again, the inexpensive no IM# designation graphites. The Scott, of course, would still stand out among them, but not that much as everyman's technology of today was way ahead technology 30 years ago. As I remember Scott technology back in the early 80's, it was a combination of standard Fisher blanks, unsanded and unfinished that were "enhanced" with glued in pegs strategically placed inside the rod sections at various points along the section. They stiffened the sections and created the original fast action rods to an industry that to that point was enamered by light, strong, stiff graphite sticks that were often pretty unpleasant. I thought of it as "trickery." It was effective, though. I think the early Scott rods were among the best performing graphite rods to date. Wish I had kept the several that I had back then.
graewolf		#52	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 262 (11/10/08 16:26:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Great discussion guys. In case some of you have not seen it, or don't read this magazine, there is an article in the Jan/Feb (current issue) of Fly Rod & Reel magazine about Tom Morgan, and it mentions fiberglassflyrodders in the article, and talks a little about the Stalker series of the glass rods that Tom made under the Winston brand as being "the pinnacle of fiberglass rod making." Mike
Andymanyankee		#53	[-]
Posts: 1066 (11/10/08 18:46:23) Rod Builder Deluxe and 1st eBay Oracle Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hello Mike As one of the few that was around when this site started the recognition of the site in Fly Rod and Reel is a milestone for the site. This is the first I have heard of this and I will be off to the news stand in the morning. Information of this magnitude should be a topic for it's own Thread may I suggest you post the information here ! Messages, Claves, News, Welcome & FAQs Tight Lines and Fiberglas Loops Andy M
jgestar		#54	[-]
Posts: 2911 (11/10/08 18:50:56) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I've got to see this issue too. If we got some good press, let's make sure everyone knows. If not, then let's keep it our little secret! We've been mentioned on some websites before. But it's pretty rare that anyone will commit real ink for us. Joe C. mentioned an interesting article in InFisherman too. Off to the news stand... Tom
OLD YANKEE		#55	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 170 (11/10/08 19:09:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Hello Hey Tom who would have thunk ? I can't imagine it being anything but positive you have seen to that good job boss ! Tight Lines and 2 Thumbs Up Loops Andy M 'FISH AND VISITORS STINK AFTER 3 DAYS' " DON'T FORGET THE BACKBONE" " REMEMBER TO SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL FISHERY"

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