The $223.01 Cent Question

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Scooter2022	The $223.01 Cent Question	Lead	[-]
Guide Posts: 46 (07/11/08 07:30:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Good Morning, A recent post about Cortland dropping the Diamondglass line brought the comment from OhioOutdoorsman "Now the entry level new fiberglass rod is a $350+ Steffen or McFarland (if you don't count the $240 lami spring creeks) ........seems like there would be a void." To which mdwwhw responded "Don't forget the $16.99 Eagle Claw" That got me to thinking, and I'm not being a wise guy or trying to start an argument here. In fact, I already know some of the answers to my question. I will say I don't begrudge any company charging a higher price for their product. It's a free market economy, and if one company can fetch a higher price than others, I commend them for that. I'm also not gonna say that my $16.99 Featherlight is as good as or better than your Steffen, McFarland or Lami. I'm not that foolish, nor do I believe it is as good or better. I do own an Eagle Claw Featherlight, and I will say that the workmanship and finish of it is nice. It's not a work of art, but it is beyond what I expected for $16.99, and I do love fishing it. This is a legitimate question, other than $223.01 what separates an Eagle Claw from a Lami Spring Creek? I've never casted or even held a high end (cost) fiberglass fly rod, so personal preferences for feel and fit aside, I'll start with what I know. An American company can't pay someone over here pennies an hour to work, so obviously the labor cost for a China Eagle Claw is lower, so the rod costs less. The Eagle Claw is using lower end components- guides, cork & reel seat, so the rod costs less. I'm assuming that a lot of money has gone into research and development for the higher end U.S.A. made rods, so they have to recoup that. Those things aside, I'm left with this; it's a fiberglass stick, why is one so much higher priced than the other? Thanks ahead for your responses, Tom
jgestar		#1	[-]
Posts: 2453 (07/11/08 07:54:10) ezOP Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Tom, The Eagle Claw is a basic rod that has been made in roughly the same configuration for 20+ years. There's no new R&D, no investment. The quality control is now practically non-existent if some reports are accurate. The rod is built on a butt over tip blank, leaving the fisherman with a very tip oriented action. That's a configuration designed for spinning rods, that was pressed into service as a fly rod. And there are only two choices (nearly identical) of rod to cover all your fishing situations. Mind you it's an OK fly rod. I've owned one for years. It casts, catches fish, and does everything a fly rod should. But it isn't as fun/comfortable to cast as the better rods. Price wise, I would guess Eagle Claw loses a little on every unit and probably isn't making it up on volume. The better rods are made by a significantly higher priced labor pool. The companies are still investing in R&D, still QCing the products, carrying several much larger product lines, advertising, and offering a warrantee that can be a crushing long term cost. Manufacturing costs above and beyond labor are much higher too (taxes, rent, disposal costs, etc.). Tom
yuhina		#2	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 940 (07/11/08 09:05:17) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Good thread! Tom, I have been going back and forth debating those kind of questions too... I think Tom give us a very legitimate reasoning here. I agree. I have several different rods, and the main reason I consider to pay higher price is due to it fishing ability. Every rod will catch fish, and it's all exciting to have a fish on the other end of line, as we all knows. Doesn't matter the value of the rod. The weird thing I do find is, During the time I do NOT catching fish... I usually will start to complain the rod, the loop and the action... it is boring not catching fish... so the focus will transfer to all those details. : ) A good rod will make me happier during the Non-catching period. I think the presentation is good, my ability is good... just the fish doesn't biting... The bad rod, to me, is the rod wobble a lot... difficult to control the loop and the tailing loop will really get me start ro complain... Mark www.yuhina.blogspot.com
davelrods		#3	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 63 (07/11/08 11:27:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	jgestar wrote: Tom, The Eagle Claw is a basic rod that has been made in roughly the same configuration for 20+ years. There's no new R&D, no investment. The quality control is now practically non-existent if some reports are accurate. The rod is built on a butt over tip blank, leaving the fisherman with a very tip oriented action. That's a configuration designed for spinning rods, that was pressed into service as a fly rod. And there are only two choices (nearly identical) of rod to cover all your fishing situations. Mind you it's an OK fly rod. I've owned one for years. It casts, catches fish, and does everything a fly rod should. But it isn't as fun/comfortable to cast as the better rods. Price wise, I would guess Eagle Claw loses a little on every unit and probably isn't making it up on volume. The better rods are made by a significantly higher priced labor pool. The companies are still investing in R&D, still QCing the products, carrying several much larger product lines, advertising, and offering a warrantee that can be a crushing long term cost. Manufacturing costs above and beyond labor are much higher too (taxes, rent, disposal costs, etc.). Tom I'm not sure how accurate that contention is. I started building rods in the 50 with Lamiglas honey blanks, with black anodozed aluminum ferrules. I still have a couple dozen of those finished rods in the shop in an old box. Brother Bill still fishes with a couple of them. About ten years ago I asked Tom Posey of Lamiglas if he could do some of those old blanks for me and he said sure, but they would have plug ferrules. Basically, the Lamiglas honey blanks with plug ferrules are unchanged from those of the 50's but for the plug ferrules. The tip over butt honey ones and spring creek ones are indeed different tapers, but probably the same materials. Probably no question new technology has impacted glass, but probably not nearly to the extent we might think it has. To compare Eagle Claw mellow yellows with current Lamiglas honey's is probably pretty fair. Spring Creek is different, but probably only by the tip over butt tapers. They are more powerful blanks, but not much different really. Sand the brown finish off and they are honey underneath, just like the others. Other brands of glass I'm really not all that familiar with, but Lamiglas stuff is pretty unchanged from the beginning.
bulldog1935		#4	[-]
Posts: 3267 (07/11/08 12:11:55) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	let's see, a made-in-America blank that works, vs. a made-in-China blank that doesn't work. I see it as something for something, vs nothing for even less. I'd rather have something.
kimosabe131		#5	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 378 (07/11/08 12:49:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	But BD, aren't those Japanese Yellow Fenwicks made in China? Not that I have of those.
vincognito	Butt over tip	#6	[-]
Sport Posts: 44 (07/11/08 12:49:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Butt over tip, as jgestar noted is on the Eagleclaw, makes for quite a jump in the thickness at the joint. This is a lot different than tip over butt which is on many very good rods such as the early Lamiglass, Fenwick, etc. -Vinnie in Juneau
Scooter2022		#7	[-]
Guide Posts: 48 (07/11/08 14:04:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Thanks for the responses guys. Again, I'm not trying to stir up fecal matter, just looking for qualitative reasons one costs so much more than another, however, I do understand that certain subjective things like paying for a name has a bearing on cost as well-not that there's anything wrong with that. I do it myself, because often with a name comes a quality and reputation that is worth the extra bucks. Tom
davelrods	But the contention was that Eagle Claw	#8	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 64 (07/11/08 14:09:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	hasn't changed in "20 + years." My point was that Lamiglas hasn't changed in 50 + years with their regular honey blanks. No way I would debate the relative quality or performance of either, but to suggest that 20 year old technology is a dead end is to ignore much of what we are accepting as very competitive in glass right now. Philipson is accepted as competitive in glass today, when it was quite old technology too. Honestly, glass in the configurations we enjoy as true glass actions today is much the same as it was back with the better blanks early on. Folks love the early Winston glass and its parent J. Kennedy Fisher blanks which are presently at least 25 year old technology. Even Sage S glass stuff dates back to the beginning of Sage in the very early 80's. Eagle Claw might be sub standard and might have always been so, but it is much more than old technology that made it such. Further to suggest that its being currently made in China somehow relegates it to cheap imported junk, ignores the absolute wealth of Chinese imports that all of us enjoy as cutting edge and extreme quality right now. I build and sell only high end graphite and glass fly rods and use them every day in the summer, but I would be much more than presumptuous to suggest that I couldn't enjoy an afternoon with a $16.95 Eagle Claw fly rod. Gosh, I fished for years with Shakespeare Wonderods. Anybody want to make a performance comparison between a Mellow Yellow and a Wonderod. Talk about a 3 wt absolutely sloppy tip rod rated for a 5 wt line.
bulldog1935		#9	[-]
Posts: 3268 (07/11/08 14:13:47) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	whether they work or not has nothing to do with whether they are made in China. here's your clue
davelrods	Um, ok.	#10	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 65 (07/11/08 14:21:38) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	bulldog1935 wrote: let's see, a made-in-America blank that works, vs. a made-in-China blank that doesn't work. I see it as something for something, vs nothing for even less. I'd rather have something. Whose judgment is it that it doesn't work? One fellow in this thread suggests that his works just fine. Aren't we interjecting a bit of rod snobbery into this with such comparisons. I've battled imports for at least the last 15 years in my business, but I surely haven't sold my rods against them by suggesting they are junk. I have done like much of the industry and simply tried to produce the best on the best components available, some of which have been imports. Hold a Pflueger Trion reel in your hand and characterize it as imported junk. Take a look at the graphite rod blanks being sold by Batson Enterprises and Pacific Bay and see how they hold up. One of my favorite 3 wts is a two piece 7'9" rod built on an early Batson blank I bought on close out from them for $6.00.
bulldog1935		#11	[-]
Posts: 3269 (07/11/08 14:31:52) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	You calling me out? I have fished with a lot of rods, including some very inexpensive Shakespeare glass rods, made with the same ferrules as the Eagle Claw rods but with EVA foam grips - they happen to work Very Well. I have also fished with Eagle Claw rods. Their bait rods are just fine. I find their fly rods less than functional. I can assure your that my resume and judgement are both accepted around here. You want some more rods that don't work? Try the new China-made Pflueger rods, and all the market variants of those. It has nothing to do with price or origin, but with the fact that their tapers were never thought out. Opinions are fine, but keep your opinions about my opinions to yourself. Last Edited By: bulldog1935 07/11/08 14:39:27. Edited 2 times.
lpirrone		#12	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 1813 (07/11/08 15:13:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	you know what they say? opinions are like a...oles. every body has one. the best opinions come from real life experience that many of the members of this board have in abundance, especially bulldog and dave. it has to be recognised that life experiece varies from inidividual to inidvidual and is for the most part anectdotal.
bulldog1935		#13	[-]
Posts: 3270 (07/11/08 15:44:58) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	IMO, the Eagle Claw fly rods hinge badly. They have a flat spot at the ferrule. The tip loads fine, but to load the rod into the butt requires an inordinate increase in line speed. Once you are past that, they will cast distance. But there are a couple of false casts in the middle that require one-armed paper-hanger skills. Last Edited By: bulldog1935 07/11/08 15:51:03. Edited 1 times.
davelrods	Ha, Ha, Bulldog, has some feathers I can see.	#14	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 66 (07/11/08 15:54:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	No, I just get hung up on dogma. When some come along and demand that a product is junk when you know personally folks who have enjoyed such for years, I get more than skeptical. Never owned an Eagle Claw, but if it is capable in the hands of others, I feel it would be equally capable in the hands of many. As for its relative merit, sure, why not. I think the whole thrust of this thread, as started by the original poster, is: are $200+ glass rods enough superior to render a $16.95 Eagle Claw as not worth the time it takes to get it out of its bag, if it comes with one at that price. You suggest it isn't. You also apply your broad brush to a lot of other "imports." As for "calling you out," sure I am always ready to "call out" contentious posters in any forum, with a simple request that they grant others with differing opinions equal validity. When it comes to subjective evaluations such as we are dealing with in this thread it is very unlikely any of us is going to be regarded as "right." All we really have to offer, after all, are our personal opinions, since no real measure exists to cast our opinions as more or less worthy. Can I comment on your opinions, I surely hope so, if this forum is worth its bandwidth. As for your "resume and judgment" as being accepted here, makes little difference to me if it doesn't allow for differing opinions. Perhaps a title like "moderator" allows you to demand that others not question. If so, then I suggest you need to move on. As I said once before in these forums, forums are for throwing out ideas to be questioned, debated, added to, discounted or taken home as worthwhile. When some of that is excluded by moderators, then the forum becomes little more than a platform for moderated dogma.
davelrods		#15	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 67 (07/11/08 15:56:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	bulldog1935 wrote: IMO, the Eagle Claw fly rods hinge badly. They have a flat spot at the ferrule. The tip loads fine, but to load the rod into the butt requires an inordinate increase in line speed. Once you are past that, they will cast distance. But there are a couple of false casts in the middle that require one-armed paper-hanger skills. Good explanation. Yep, that makes good sense, to me. You should have offered that before you started butting heads.
bulldog1935		#16	[-]
Posts: 3273 (07/11/08 16:18:38) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	yes, my opinion was based on experience and reason, not prejudice, snobbery, or self-righteousness. You should have considered that before you started butting heads. I challenge you to find anywhere on this thread where I discounted anyone's opinoin, as you did to mine. In this world of $800 tiboron marketing hype, the best buy on a flyrod is usually a venerable glass or vintage cane rod that has been discounted by the mainstream of the sport, because it doesn't fuel the industry. The premise of this thread was whether there is enough difference between a $20 Eagle Claw and $250 Lamiglas to justify the difference in price. I simply stated my opinion regarding the question. I suggest you ask everyone else on this thread to justify their opinions, as well. Last Edited By: bulldog1935 07/11/08 16:29:51. Edited 2 times.
lpirrone		#17	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 1814 (07/11/08 16:22:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	it is kind of interesting that with some products price level is equated with quality and in other products the lowest price is the most desireable aspect. i guess that is the difference between a sack of potatos (a commodity) and a flyrod. flyrods are seldom considered in the same light as a commodity. in fact as price goes up there is an expectation of quality (that may not be justified) and as price drops below a certain level there is an expectation of poor performance and quality (that may not be justified). i wonder what would happen if eagle claw priced their rods at say $60.00. this would allow them to invest in higher quality materials, create a better product and perhaps appeal to a larger market. with their obviously low production costs they might have a very profitable product that would fill a nitch that is not being filled currently. where can you buy a quality glass rod for $60.00 (a price i just pulled out of the air). i doubt if i would ever buy a new 20.00 glass flyrod but i might buy a $60.00 one if it was just a little better cosmetically and design wise. it could still be made in china after all i do own two built in china fly rods from a japanese store that i paid over $200.00 each for. they have very good quality and fill a nitch i can't fill with anything i can buy or build around here.
davelrods	Then next time offer your expertise first.	#18	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 68 (07/11/08 16:28:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	bulldog1935 wrote: yes, my opinion was based on experience and reason, not prejudice, snobbery, or self-righteousness. You should have thought of that before you started butting heads. Rather than suggest that we should automatically accept that you indeed have such. I don't know you from Adam. All I garner from your posts is that they are absolute. And all that in a world pretty much void of absolutes. The original poster has a quite legitimate question, which you responded to with absolutes till I forced your hand and got a little sensible evidence out of you. I'm glad I did. You should be too. As a result you shared some information we can take home.
bulldog1935		#19	[-]
Posts: 3274 (07/11/08 16:30:29) Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	No, you called my opinion snobbery, and have spent a page justifying yourself. I think you should allow this thread to return to the topic. Last Edited By: bulldog1935 07/11/08 16:34:35. Edited 2 times.
davelrods	I don't know,	#20	[-]
Master Guide Posts: 69 (07/11/08 16:35:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	lpirrone wrote: it is kind of interesting that with some products price level is equated with quality and in other products the lowest price is the most desireable aspect. i guess that is the difference between a sack of potatos (a commodity) and a flyrod. flyrods are seldom considered in the same light as a commodity. in fact as price goes up there is an expectation of quality (that may not be justified) and as price drops below a certain level there is an expectation of poor performance and quality (that may not be justified). i wonder what would happen if eagle claw priced their rods at say $60.00. this would allow them to invest in higher quality materials, create a better product and perhaps appeal to a larger market. with their obviously low production costs they might have a very profitable product that would fill a nitch that is not being filled currently. where can you buy a quality glass rod for $60.00 (a price i just pulled out of the air). i doubt if i would ever buy a new 20.00 glass flyrod but i might buy a $60.00 one if it was just a little better cosmetically and design wise. it could still be made in china after all i do own two built in china fly rods from a japanese store that i paid over $200.00 each for. they have very good quality and fill a nitch i can't fill with anything i can buy or build around here. I think they would probably be "stuck with their handle," so to speak. I remember quite a few years back St Croix came with the Legend Elite series of extreme fast action rods, which had very competitive performance with the high end stuff from Sage. I did St. Croix stuff then in addition to my long standing Sage rods. They were very poor sellers for me, while the green Legend rods at a couple hundred less continued to sell well. I have rather lost track of St Croix, but still see Legend rods as well regarded. I really wonder if the expensive Elite rods ever did get a niche for them. Maybe someone on here knows for sure. My thought was that St Croix always was lower to midrange stuff along with a strong private label presence, that fairly negated truly high end stuff. Folks have short memories, though and lots of new folks come along so handles don't hang forever. Still, I doubt a $60 Eagle Claw would be more highly regarded than a sub $20 one, but who knows.

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